Skip to the transcript of Episode 9
Show Notes
In this episode Jo-Ann and Candida spin off from our last interview about school avoidance, digging a little deeper into the high rates of chronic absenteeism being seen across the country since COVID-19. Public discussions have tended to focus on this problem as one of kids and families falling into bad habits since the pandemic. In our experience and reading we have found that there are numerous reasons for students to be chronically absent and that solving this problem will need a broader perspective and a focus on understanding unmet needs.
Jo-Ann and Candida spend some time discussing the need for schools to respond to extended absences with curiosity and increased communication, rather than an impersonal, punitive letter or demands from the school or district. Offering a non-judgmental space in which families feel comfortable talking about what’s going on is a big first step. Of course, families need to stay in touch with the school, and encouraging that is part of a more welcoming approach by the school.
Why Might Students Miss School?
The discussion covers a range of mental and physical health needs that might lead a student to be out of school for a long time including anxiety, ADHD, and depression. Social challenges, including bullying, are frequent reasons that students don’t want to go to school. Physical illnesses, including things such as gastrointestinal distress, are commonly seen in children and teens and can be embarrassing for them. Understanding students’ needs and providing accommodations and modifications are essential in these situations.
Academic struggles and teacher/student communication challenges can be central reasons children avoid school. Trying to catch up after being out sick is a common jumping-off point for school avoidance. Modifying or off-loading missed work is a common modification that can make a world of difference in getting students back – along with welcoming them, without calling them out for their absence.
Tying It Together
The discussion recalls prior interviews – including those in which we talked about how hungry, tired, scared, angry, or hurting children can’t learn. Ensuring these needs are met is essential to helping students get back to school regularly. The discussions in several episodes focused on helping children, teens, and adults increase their emotional literacy and skills for regulation to improve feelings of safety and emotional well-being at school.
Other critical barriers to school attendance can include a parent’s illness or other struggles, challenges in financial and/or housing resources, absent or inconsistent school transportation, lack of access to laundry facilities, and many other social determinants of health significantly increase the risks of chronic school absenteeism. While districts all over the country are trying to create ways to help children address some of these needs, many of these problems can’t be solved at school. However, a curious approach to children and families struggling with attendance can help uncover unmet needs and can change the whole approach from punishment to support.
Resources
Lauri DeSautelis Revelations in Education
Washington Post – Students who miss school get help, not punishment
Providing laundry machines at school to combat absenteeism
Episode 9 AI-Generated transcript, lightly edited for clarity
Candida Fink: Good morning, Jo.
Jo-Ann Berry: Good morning, Candida.
Candida Fink: Hello to all our listeners. This is, mental health goes to school. We’re just you and me today. Nobody to interview.
Jo-Ann Berry: No. But we decided we did want to follow up a little bit from our last guest interview with Jayne Demsky where we talked about absenteeism, school avoidance, and it’s a big problem nationwide. All age groups, all school types, all district types. absenteeism has increased a lot since the pandemic, and there are a lot of reasons for that. And we just wanted to talk about some of those a little bit.
Candida Fink: Yeah, I think we wanted to just touch on that conversation because it’s certainly been in the media, lots of people talking about it, some places, really trying some new things. And I think we wanted to think about it in the context, particularly of mental health.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: And how mental health issues are, very much correlated with some significant amount of the absenteeism, that we’re seeing. so, yeah, I don’t know. We’ve heard this from different places and in different contexts, but that engagement with school – family engagement and school – family communication are two of the most important, strategies and skills for reducing absenteeism. Or maybe rather, focusing on the positive, but increasing attendance.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, exactly. from both directions, for the school, some districts and schools have a policy, and it’s state-mandated, often that after x number of absences, whatever that is, five, maybe, that the parent has to receive a letter saying, and often it’s a very stern and legally punitive sounding letter; if your child does not return to school blah, blah, blah, all these consequences will happen. Whereas, perhaps a different approach would be for the school to say, hey, I’ve noticed your child has been out for three days.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: are they ill? Could you update us on what’s happening and if we can support you in some way?
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: And obviously, if the child is ill, they have to be out, but it might be something else that the school could help with.
Candida Fink: Exactly. And just knowing. And look, even if the kid is sick, to be able to know that the kid is, sometimes a school can support parents in some way by knowing that the child is sick. Can we help you get work? Are they well enough to even try doing their work? Are they worried about missing work? Because some kids, if they’re out being sick, are very worried about it. Sometimes they’re too sick to do much of anything. Depends on what’s going on. but yeah, I couldn’t agree more.
And I think pretty much anyone we’ve talked to about anything related to mental health in school has really focused on this concept of not approaching kids or parents in that sort of very stern, punitive way. When we recognize a problem we want to be curious about it, like, hey, what’s happening? we want to be compassionate, and we want to be sort of solution-focused and support-focused. What can we do? because I think that those letters are terrifying. They end up emails now, they get dispensed with. and, then it’s another five days and another ten days and more and more letters, and then it’s become a bigger and bigger problem.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. And then on the other side, the parents or the family caregivers can let the school know. Certainly, that’s the expectation that if a child is sick, that the parents will let the school know. But sometimes that doesn’t happen. or as our guest was pointing out last time, if a student has a particular problem with a particular type of assignment, or knowing that they have to go to a certain class or whatever it is, trying to communicate that with the school could then lead to some problem solving or at least understanding of, I understand you’re doing your best to get your child to come to school today, but it’s not working. Once again, what can we do?
Candida Fink: What else can we do? And I think that’s a really great point that you made, Jo, about sort of identifying early. If a child is having a particular challenge in a particular area, like, are they really struggling with writing? And this is like across age groups, too, of students.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, exactly.
Candida Fink: Writing task. Are they particularly overwhelmed by writing or stuck, or math or gym? Is there something they’re embarrassed about or that they don’t want to be a part of? Certainly, that’s a common situation. and identifying it early. Right. So, there’s a problem with that one thing, but then it starts to expand. But don’t wait the full five days, and parents don’t wait to let. We want you to feel comfortable reaching out to the school to let them know what’s going on. And at the same time, we want schools to be welcoming and encouraging of that communication and be trying to work with parents to problem solve rather than just saying no. Make the kid come to school because we know that’s right.
Jo-Ann Berry: That’s not usually very effective not usually the way it works. which just kind of made me think a little bit about how our expectations, life in general have changed from when many of us went to school It was like we didn’t even think of not going. It’s like you get up, you go to school. the parents, the same thing. It probably didn’t require a lot of effort on their part to get you out the door. But life has changed. Expectations have changed. And we can hang on to that idea that this is the expectation. Just kids just get up and go to school
Candida Fink: I’m muting because JoJo’s barking.
Jo-Ann Berry: Okay, barking dogs there he is, OK.
Jo-Ann Berry: but that it has changed. And we might not think it’s great, we might not like it, but it has changed. And so we do need to adjust to that if we want our students to be successful not only in school but in life. And there, the dog has been excused. We’re back.
Candida Fink: The dog excused. So sorry.
Jo-Ann Berry: Well, and that just points to another thing. It’s like if we were doing this radio show at a different time and place, there would be no dogs around.
Candida Fink: The only way to do it would have been in a studio, separate from everything.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right? Isolated, as it were.
Candida Fink: Everything is mixed together now. Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: Whereas now we’re in our own homes, having this discussion, we live far enough apart that it would not at all be convenient for us to get together.
Candida Fink: That’s right.
Jo-Ann Berry: On Saturday morning.
Candida Fink: Done this way. And for kids, I think about remote learning during the pandemic. And that’s, of course, the discussion is specifically the rates of absenteeism that have risen significantly post-pandemic. And while lots of kids missed school and so much wanted to be back at school there were plenty of kids and families for whom remote learning was this great sigh of relief for a number of reasons. Kids with anxiety. Right. who just are school phobic because they have an anxiety disorder or because of something specific at school parents who were overwhelmed. I mean, remote learning was a lot for most families. But for some families, being able to have their child do their schoolwork from home and not have to get them to a school building, was a relief sometimes. So, I think for some of those people, that relief. It’s hard to want to go back to all the struggle of going back to school And I’m not saying that’s okay, but it points out to needs not being met. Right. I think that’s when we see these problems that something about being remote was meeting some need.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right? Like you said, the social. who am I going to sit with at lunch? what about that kid who waits for me in the bathroom to bully me just in case? Bullying in general, or the more mundane, who am I going to sit with at lunch? I hate that kid that I sit behind in math who always bugs me. or a particular teacher that you just don’t interact well with, or whatever it is, or just for some people, the sheer number of bodies and people around and sounds. Exactly, yeah. Any of that type of thing.
Candida Fink: And that speaks to so many reasons. A kid who can’t sit still in class was so much happier to bounce around. The kid who has social anxiety, and had trouble participating. The kid who, I don’t know, just needed to take breaks for whatever reason, frequently could get up and do so, I think so many. Or if there were social problems of all kinds, and certainly at the more extreme range, bullying is a very real and very persistent problem in school, and for kids who are victimized, who would want to go back to school?
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. And another thing is how much more time people spent with their pets. because we saw, I mean, whether you were in school or doing meetings, corporate meet, whatever, there were so many more pets. And for many people, having your pet nearby is very comforting, very stabilizing. And obviously, we can’t have everyone bringing pets to school. Some schools do have therapy animals, of course, but that’s not your own pet, which, I mean, they’re very popular. The therapy animals we have at school are. It’s like whoever the person is that goes with them is beside the point almost.
Candida Fink: Yeah, exactly. Who cares about the handler?
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah. The students want to hang out with the dogs. so, there are a lot of reasons why. You wouldn’t want to make the transition back to meeting the expectations of full-time school out of your home, all that sort of thing. And there are some other things that we certainly wanted to acknowledge. Some, of the effects of the anxiety could slide by and not be noticed, or the student and the family certainly know it, but don’t particularly want to share it with the school Particularly if a student has severe GI issues. Right. Have to rush to the restroom, unexpectedly. That could be embarrassing, for sure.
Jo-Ann Berry: In some public schools, you got 1000 kids in the building. You can’t just be letting kids go willy-nilly, or you can, there’s different policies, different ways to manage that, and you don’t want to be that one kid that’s like, well, I’m not going to follow the rule.
Candida Fink: Right. and they have to make a plan with the nurse or whatever that you got to go to the nurse, but they may be way across the building. Certainly, there are public schools that lock, bathrooms for parts of the day, so that you have to go very far. Lots of complicated, again, vectors and needs that are being met by that action. But that can make it really hard for kids.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: want to be in school or there are kids who are anxious and have to pee all the time, or.
Jo-Ann Berry: They’re on certain medications that require drinking a lot of water and therefore, they got to go to the bathroom.
Candida Fink: Exactly. Something like lithium, m in particular comes to mind in my specialty. Right. But there are others that are going to be affected. And that’s another thing that kids and families may be not telling schools about, or schools don’t know about new meds or med changes, physical side effects, and emotional, and behavioral side effects. So that’s where we just continue to come back to that sense of communication and engagement and welcoming because we want families to feel that they can tell the school what’s happening and what their child’s needs are and how can we help to meet their needs at school.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. And back to the communication with, the communication, in general, is if something that we know works is if a student’s been absent for a little bit, don’t be like, yeah, look who came back. It’s like, hello, it’s nice to see you. just the normal greeting. And as much as possible, students should be greeted every day by name, if possible. I understand if you’ve got 100 and some kids, that might be a little tricky, but if at some point during the day somebody says, hello, Margaret, it is so nice to see you today, or just call a kid by name. Just call a student by name.
Candida Fink: Hey, Margaret, how are you, not calling them out in front of all their peers, not calling any attention to the fact that they’ve been out because, know, none of this. Oh, look who decided to show up to school today.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right?
Candida Fink: And unfortunately, we know that happens from some adults in some buildings, so that is almost certainly especially, an adolescent or pre-adolescent kid is going to be mortified to have that called out. So just a very welcoming, hey, nice to see you, how are you doing? But nothing more. And not jumping into, well, you have this to do and this to how are you ever going to catch up on this? How are you ever going to catch up on that? Because we know many kids who struggle to get back to school are anxious.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: And that’s just going to send them fleeing back home.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly. And if you’re in the habit of greeting many or all of the students as they come into your class or into the building, then it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary. And then at some point, if a student has been out for a little while and they haven’t been up to date on the work, just give them the first day to just be there. if they ask, definitely have something that they can be working on. But if they don’t, just let them be. And then at some point, hopefully as an aside, privately, as the last person out of the room or whatever, saying, hey, let’s try to meet during whatever the time is that works in the school schedule, let’s try to meet and see what you need to do and don’t make it every single assignment. If they’ve been out for a little while, figure out what they know, and what would make sense to give them confidence.
Candida Fink: You said that at one of our other meetings too, Jo, and it has stuck with me so much, that sense of, because, from the mental health perspective, we’re so making sure that kids are not having too many demands put on them because, for all the reasons, right, because there’s ADHD, OCD, anxiety, depression, we’re encouraging schools to sort of be aware and know that demands may not be met. So that’s always our vector. You said they, want to give them enough work to feel competent. Yes. so that is another part of being successful at school and wanting to come back is a sense of competency. So, it’s not, removing all demand is not, going to help with his engagement either. So, I think that’s really, to me, that really was the connection between the two in some very fundamental way that we need to be sure we’re not overlaying on too much demand. And also, we want to know the child, help the child feel that they have competency, that they can do things, proficiency, that there are things they can succeed at and do, and that’s not easy to figure out. But that vector has stuck with me.
Jo-Ann Berry: and on the other hand, if they clearly are at sea and do not understand anything, then you’ve got to spend the time, make, the time available work, perhaps if it’s at the middle school and high school level, work with other teachers to figure out amongst you how you’re going to help this student. Like do they have to miss a class during your prep block or the after-school time, if that’s a thing, but not put too many demands on them? But, oh, you’re doing great in history, so, during that time, could you come to my classroom, and we’ll catch you up?
Candida Fink: Up and coordinated with history teacher knows we’re not dragging you from history and that like.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: The history teacher and I have, you know, we’re all kind of talking together and want to help you and want you to let us know if they can.
Jo-Ann Berry: That might not work. But having that . . .
Candida Fink: Communication solutions, creative solutions. Communication and engagement. Communication, engagement. You are a person; you have specific needs. We want to support you, to meet you where you are.
Candida Fink: And if they’re fully at sea, competency is going to feel really far away. And that can trigger all kinds of negative emotions and feelings and avoidance so that support to figure out what even the smallest place that they can sort of get that feeling or begin to have.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Because why do you want to come back if you just feel like you’re never going to catch up? Which I mean, exactly. And identifying this somehow. I think a lot of people think that school and quote, “real life” work are different.
Jo-Ann Berry: But understanding, like, if you’ve missed a bunch of work and there are things in your work life that piled up, hopefully you’ve got the skills. If you got the job in the first place, you’ve got the skills to come back and catch up. But it probably doesn’t feel good to be that far behind and think about a student who has fewer skills, less knowledge, a smaller knowledge base, immature brain. Yeah. To work from. And also thinking, oh, I have to know all of these things.
Candida Fink: Right?
Jo-Ann Berry: As I point out to students, if everybody knew everything, we teachers would not have a job. There’s a reason for this and it is literally our job to help you learn this stuff.
Candida Fink: You don’t have to know it all to start.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly. But from an adult perspective, if you think of it that way, I think that might help a little bit in some instances. because students are not always able to articulate that.
Candida Fink: No. And that speaks to trying to empathize with them in the sense that, the feelings are the same just because it’s school and people, oh, school is not, it’s just school Wait till they have to grow up and go to work, then they’ll understand. And it’s like, no, this is their work, and this feels just as hard to them as your job does to you. This is what they are ready developmentally, in theory, to be doing. And it is a challenge to them, and it is not easy. And there are plenty of people in work life, adults who struggle with physical illness, mental illness.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: Who may have to miss lots of time, and then sometimes that means they have to get help at their job. Someone else has to step in and cover for them for a while. Some assignments may have to be reassigned to someone else. If I’m out for a while, like when I had to have some heart surgery, someone had to cover for me because I couldn’t keep doing work while I was sick.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: That idea of being clear that there are direct comparisons and that we can’t just expect kids to do more just because they’re kids and it’s school right? They need that same level of support, time to recover, or leaving off some things or offloading some things just.
Jo-Ann Berry: don’t know. It depends on the student, the subject, the school whatever. Right, exactly. And, yeah, the ability to, acknowledge that and hopefully take the time, to do that, which also made me think of sometimes students miss school or are reluctant to come to school because they have undiagnosed things like ADHD, OCD, a few of those sorts of things which somehow interfere, and we don’t recognize it because they’re not like, bouncing off the wall or yelling out at random or, I don’t know, just exhibiting some kind of obvious behavior that is hard. And if they’re in a room full of 25 others, some of whom are exhibiting some behaviors, and there’s the whole range, obviously, that student, ah, who’s quieter can be overlooked,
Candida Fink: Right. The inattentive daydreamers, often, more often, that’s what girls are often missed. ADHD, because they tend to present more inattentively than hyperactive, doesn’t mean they can’t be hyperactive girls or inattentive boys. But in broad strokes, we know that they tend to present a little differently, and kids will get missed, and they don’t come packaged, or diagnosed. The symptoms present, and over time, we learn and eventually can understand if there is a diagnosis, but that can lead to a lot of struggles for a long time without the kid understanding what’s happening, without the family understanding what’s happening. And that can absolutely lead to absenteeism and not wanting to be at school Feeling overwhelmed as OCD is another really classic of a sort of invisible disability that can take a long time to get the right diagnosis. A kid may be really struggling for a very long time, and that can have a lot of problems being in school for a variety of reasons until that gets diagnosed.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: So that’s just the process of, in a child, figuring out because their symptoms are behavioral, right? In so many of these things and affect learning and socializing. So, it can look for all the world like the kid is just being a bad kid, but there’s something brewing. Eventually, we’ll figure it out. But they can miss a lot of school in the meantime, right?
Jo-Ann Berry: And if they’re feeling like they can never keep up, and then put on top of that, a certain teacher calls them out kind of in a rude way, or it feels to them like it’s negative, whatever. And the teacher would have no idea because how could they, whether or not this student is actually trying or not, whatever the parameters are that the school or the teacher might be applying? And then it’s like, oh, that teacher always yelled at me, I’m not going to school, or I never know what’s going on. I am so stupid; I’m not going to school.
Candida Fink: Absolutely. That just happens. It’s just so often, and so then kids who’ve been sort of caught up in this pandemic during their educational years, that stuff is just all getting folded into that. And it felt better to be home, learning from home. Sometimes not learning from home, but getting back to school where feels so icky, feels so awful because I feel overwhelmed. I feel understandable. In other words, again, it’s meeting needs that we don’t always understand, but not being in school is meeting some needs, and our goal is to try to figure out together as educators, as parents, as clinicians, trying to help figure out what needs are being met with that. And how can we meet them differently, right? Get them back.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Having some more flexibility than was expected from schools in previous years and generations. Communicating, more, openly, and sooner in both directions and hopefully helping the student build skills to be able to articulate.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: Because they might not be able to say, oh, I have ADHD, but they might be able to say, oh, I just like looking out the window and thinking about whatever it is they think about, which would help the rest, help the adults, work to help them figure it out.
Candida Fink: And being open, to that we want to know. Again, that comes back to sort of trying to set up a setting where kids, children, not just the families, but children, teens, feel comfortable reporting or communicating with a teacher or someone in the building. That man, I sit in class all day and it’s like they’re talking another language. So, look, most kids aren’t going to be that insightful or verbal about it, but we create the space all along to talk about need and challenge. And it’s not just about, getting an A on every test all the time.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right? Yeah. and back to some of the other episodes we had where, we incorporate into the curriculum, probably through the health aspect of students being. Learning to manage some of their feelings and being able to communicate some of that to others. Whether or not it’s the teacher who yells at me, I may not ever be able to say, please don’t do that. But I can maybe tell somebody else that every time I go to this class I get yelled at.
Candida Fink: Could we figure this out, please?
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah. And I don’t like going to that class. The student might be like, this teacher yells at me all the time. I hate going to that class. Plus, whatever they teach is stupid.
Candida Fink: Exactly. That’s exactly where that’s going to go. Right. This is dumb. yeah, I don’t need to know this anyway. When am I ever going to have to use geometry?
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, exactly. And if there is another trusted adult in the building, perhaps they can guide some discussion and perhaps talk to their peer, their teacher, and the other teacher, and say, hey, did you know you yell at this kid every day? Or at least they think you do. So maybe you can have a different approach.
Candida Fink: Right? It could make a difference.
Jo-Ann Berry: I know these are all huge things to consider on the day-to-day in a big school but the more we approach our work that way, as these students are here as individuals and of course, they mostly do present their individuality to us, but that we might need to approach, differently than we are currently, I think.
Candida Fink: So. I love, bringing up some of our prior episodes because I think today this touches on a number of themes. I mean, our episode on the sort of CBT dialectical behavioral therapy, teaching kids the general education component of that, teaching kids about emotions and emotional skills as just for across the board, every student in the building and teachers and adults in the building. the episode about SEL and that need for communication and sort of flagging kids who are at risk or being able to provide sort of baseline education and language for emotional experiences. Our school nurse who talked to us about, amygdala resting stations.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: Was the idea. And the nice thing about so much of that there are specific interventions but applying so much across the board to these universal sort of interventions to everyone, first of all, then kids feel, everyone can feel more comfortable, learn some of the skills, reduces stigma and kids don’t feel singled out. Well, you have to learn this, but everyone else is fine.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: so, it has come up in a number of our conversations, these same themes, connection, engagement, emotional skills and literacy, mental health, fluency, literacy awareness.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Along with that, yes, you need to get some exercise. You should eat some vegetables here and there. things like that. You should understand how to help yourself regulate, your emotions, not that you don’t have them, but that when you’re in a situation, what would be helpful?
Candida Fink: Right. You’re feeling a certain way. What are some ways to sort of get what you need, right? What is that feeling? What is that sensation? How can you handle this situation? What can you do to get your needs met? And the woman I was actually looking at, we’ll put her in the notes. Desautels, I think was her name. With the amygdala resting stations and her website. I can’t remember it. I think it’s Revelations in Education or something like that. Anyway, she does a lot of work there. She does a lot of professional development. Helping the Adults learn about regulating. Because if the adults are not regulated, there’s little chance children will self-regulate.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly. Yeah.
Candida Fink: I think that, ah, just again, but that’s the sort of universal story. Like, it’s not this teacher, that teacher, we’re all working on the same awareness and skills, and keeping that as a broader awareness and influence. And the world is different. People may say, well, we didn’t need to do any of that back in the day. The world is fundamentally different. we have to shift how we’re doing things. And we know better now, just like we know better about wearing seatbelts. You and I didn’t wear seatbelts most of the time when we were kids.
Jo-Ann Berry: Oh, rolling around.
Candida Fink: And I’m not saying that’s a good thing.
Jo-Ann Berry: No, we were lucky.
Candida Fink: We were lucky we’re here. The kids who didn’t survive aren’t here to talk about it. So, we know better that every kid should wear a seatbelt. Well, we know better now that all kids in learning and growing need to feel safe. And they will have emotional struggles and we can help them. And as the adults working with them, as parents, clinicians, teachers, we’re going to have struggles and we’re going to learn how to regulate to help them. We know better. And there are a lot of broadly different needs, I think, to meet.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly.
Jo-Ann Berry: Or as one of our previous guests said, something to the effect of a kid who doesn’t feel safe, comfortable, fed, not in pain from dental pain, or something that we typically take for granted. How can they learn? And bringing it back to the adults and the workplace. If you’ve got a toothache, you’re not going to be able to focus or if it’s getting up towards lunchtime, you know, you’re not usually not as focused and stuff. And then put on top of that that they’re actually growing and have other requirements.
Candida Fink: So important. Sorry, you mean to jump in on.
Jo-Ann Berry: That’s all right.
Candida Fink: Step on you. But yes, exactly. The developmental needs are on top of that. As an adult, you can identify, my tooth hurts. I need to go take a Tylenol or call the dentist. A kid’s tooth hurts. They may not have any sort of concept of being able to say that. Right. I was just thinking too, we talked a little bit, before we came on to record about sort of the social determinants of health component, like the. Hold on. my computer is going to die, so I have to plug it in, but I’m going to keep talking while I do that. okay, things like at home, is a parent ill or is there enough food? Or is, there a way to get clean clothes? We were talking about some of these schools that are providing laundry and that kind of thing.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: To help with attendance are refocusing away from the problem of absenteeism into solutions. Because there’s so much else that can be going on. Families, parents’ illness, mental or physical. Right. Or of course, financial issues can’t even.
Jo-Ann Berry: Be touched on housing situations.
Candida Fink: Keep talking.
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah. just things that, once again, going back to the times when we were in school that either the school didn’t know about or was not in a position to do anything about. We may not be in a position to do anything about somebody’s housing, but some schools have brought in laundry, washers and dryers, and made sure there’s a supply of detergent because kids don’t want to come to school in dirty clothes.
Candida Fink: They know, that kids get bullied for smelling bad.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. There are some little kids who could care less one way or the other, but in general, especially by the time you’re in middle school, you don’t want to be doing that. and there are schools, I’ve read about a few that have a dentist that comes on some schedule so that families, who don’t have access to dental care can get that taken care of. So, there’ are a lot of reasons why a student would not want to come to school that can be addressed once it’s communicated. We know what it is. That’s the key.
Candida Fink: So, we have to keep our antenna up because families and kids may not tell us. Right. We want to encourage families and kids to let us know. Also, at the school building and district level, we want to create that sort of environment and have our antenna up for things that could be going wrong or things that we could help.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Well, to be curious, as you said earlier, curious. Whereas, for example, if it was decided there were enough students that really did need a laundry facility, don’t make it into, I don’t know, like, oh, there’s those kids who are using laundry.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: Something wrong there? Don’t make it that. Make it, oh, we have a laundry facility. It’s available for anyone type of thing.
Candida Fink: It’s just like providing lunch for every kid, which should be, in my mind, absolutely universal. Kids don’t want to talk about whether or not they need to know. They don’t want to, know. Isolated or stigmatized for needing the lunch, that kind of thing.
Jo-Ann Berry: Well, in more schools, Massachusetts did go to providing free breakfast and lunch. I think it’s both, Without having to do all the paperwork and stuff it’s there. It’s available for anyone, whether your family meets income guidelines or not.
Candida Fink: so important, being hungry, you can’t learn. And look, there are families that go in and out of levels of need. Right? And again, every kid needs to eat. And I think that was. I might be wrong about this, but I think that was one of the pandemic changes, was that there was a required free lunch. It seems to me a basic, fundamental. It’s a tone. It’s actually part of that tone of welcoming everyone.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly.
Candida Fink: And broadly meeting human needs because you can’t learn if you’re not meeting human needs.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Same with transportation. You can’t learn if you’re not.
Candida Fink: If you’re not there.
Jo-Ann Berry: As we were talking about earlier, that is a big challenge in some areas more than others, just keeping drivers because of the employment picture that’s out there. and I was seeing something the other day where people who they think probably would be bus drivers, except they’re working for Amazon.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: Driving, doing okay.
Candida Fink: That makes sense.
Jo-Ann Berry: Similar type of work. I didn’t delve into it that much, but it did make sense to me that there are just more opportunities for people. Some districts definitely are having transportation issues. So, kids arriving late or not at all.
Candida Fink: That’s, again, being curious. What are the problems in that case? If the need is not being met or you don’t have transportation, that need isn’t being met. So just sort of defaulting to, well, it’s absenteeism after the pandemic, and people just are out of the habit. I think being out of school met needs. So, it’s harder to go back. It’s harder to change.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: Yeah. in my mind, it’s similar to people who don’t want to go back to the office full-time either.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly.
Candida Fink: And if us grown-ups don’t want to go back to the office full time, of course, kids, plenty of kids want to be at school but for some subsets of kids and families or other broader needs, like not having transportation, whatever, this is just becoming so much harder for them, and it is not just about a habit or a behavioral problem for the family or the kids.
Jo-Ann Berry: We have to be curious. And we can’t paint all of this with one brush saying people don’t want to go or people are out of the habit or whatever. There could be some of that, of course, but it’s a much more complicated and broader picture than that, and I feel like we covered pretty much what we. Yeah. And so, once again, I’m Jo-Ann Berry, special educator.
Candida Fink: And I’m Candida Fink. Dr. Fink, a child psychiatrist. And, this is Mental Health, Goes to School and we’re loving having these conversations together, you and me, and with the people we interview. And we really hope that if you’re listening, and you let us know what you like, and what you’d like to learn more about, share it with a friend, like, and follow, wherever you get your podcasts, know, we want to try to really bring people into these very important conversations. Right?
Jo-Ann Berry: Yes.
Candida Fink: All right, great. Well, we’ll see you soon. We’ll see you on the next one.
Jo-Ann Berry: All right.
Candida Fink: bye.