Skip to transcript of Episode 14
Show Notes
Cell phone use by students in the classroom is a contentious issue. Join Jo-Ann Berry, a seasoned special educator, and Dr. Candida Fink, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, as they delve into this topic. In this episode of Mental Health Goes to School, they tackle the complexities surrounding students’ use of mobile devices during school hours and its impact on learning and mental health.
From the potential benefits of digital accessibility for those with disabilities to the challenges posed by the constant allure of the screen, Jo-Ann and Candida explore the nuances of a world where online life is very much real life for many students. They discuss the difficulties of enforcing cell phone bans, the distractions that hinder educational engagement, and the importance of developing in-person social skills.
They consider the pros and cons of technology in the classroom, the implications for sleep and overall well-being, and the strategies families and educators can employ to navigate this digital landscape. They emphasize the need for collaboration, communication, and helping students exercise control over their digital consumption.
A candid conversation that doesn’t shy away from the tough questions, this episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone interested in the intersection of technology and mental health in our schools.
Resources
The Atlantic – End the Phone Based Childhood Now by Jonathan Haidt
The New Yorker Can We Get Kids Off Smartphones by Jessica Winter
Forbes Gen Z Hopeless or Helpful by Vicki Phillips
Education Week – Let’s Not Oversimplify Students’ Cell Phone Use by Larry Ferlazzo
Episode 14 AI generated transcript, lightly edited for clarity
Ep14 Jo-Ann and Candida – Cell Phones at School
Here we are. Mental health goes to school. I’m Jo-Ann Berry, special educator.
Candida Fink: I’m Dr. Candida Fink, a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And, we’re here to talk about mental health and school.
Jo-Ann Berry: So today we thought we would just have a chat about cell phones in school. We know that’s a hot topic among anyone who thinks about anything. It’s just a thing. but particularly for parents, teachers, and students themselves, this is definitely a hot topic.
Candida Fink: There have been a couple of books and articles that recently, Jonathan Haidt has had quite a bit of work out there in his, conceptualization of cell phones really changing children’s lives. And we won’t focus too much on the details of his argument, but the topic of, how are cell phones affecting our children, and for us in this podcast, thinking about it particularly relates to school and learning. We need to be thinking about it and talking about it.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly. Exactly. And just to be clear, we are not advocating putting the genie back in the bottle.
Candida Fink: No, that can’t happen.
Jo-Ann Berry: It’s not realistic. we were just talking about how what goes around comes around. There’s nothing new under the sun. There was a time when comic books were thought to be the devil’s tool.
Candida Fink: And then tv, was supposed to rot our brains. right. I do understand this is different. There is a level of difference, tectonic difference, which is relevant because we had a little tiny earthquake in New York yesterday. So I had to reference that. but anyway, there are fundamental changes that are different than comics and tv. I get that. But it is true that nothing is new under the sun. Phones, well, I guess this is just part of the conversation that access to cell phones, digital access in general, is all bad because there are things that it creates big benefits for big changes. Accessibility, for one, for students and teachers and parents with, various types of disabilities accessibility is much more available. I mean, barriers are taken down with things like that. there are also still people living on the other side of this, the digital divide, without access to high speed Internet or cell phones or smartphones. So I think we can’t have this conversation without placing it in the context of, well, we’re talking about people privileged enough to have access to these things, to have these problems, and that availability and access to the information and the knowledge of the Internet, all of that has become essential to living life and being a successful sort of citizen. so we have to be working on getting people more access on the other side of this. So it’s not a straightforward black-and-white conversation by any means.
Jo-Ann Berry: Correct, correct. But with that in mind, we also know that there are some things that are definitely challenges and drawbacks to student learning and student mental health, that we do want to talk about. So first of all, many people don’t understand why we just can’t ban cell phones from school, which some districts and schools have done with a level of success.
Candida Fink: Yes.
Jo-Ann Berry: I will say you do have to have buy in from the community to make that successful. The community being the parent community, the educators and school staff, and a certain level from the students. Because, particularly when students get into middle school and high school, they have their own thoughts and they need to be considered. And the approach, to doing that, to banning, having the pouches or the lock, cell phone lockers.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: so that students can have the actual physical item with them, the pouches, my understanding, they can pretty much carry them around, but they just can’t get to them. Right. So they won’t lose it. They can get to it as soon as they leave school, that sort of thing. There is some success there, and it’s, I think at this point it’s still anecdotal because there’s not a critical mass of schools or districts who have had success with this, but they do report that students are more focused, socialize more, throughout the day, which is what some of our concern is about.
Candida Fink: Absolutely. I think we’ve talked about this at length and today we’re focusing on it. It’s come up in other conversations we’ve had. The idea that kids having access to their phone during instructional time, during the school day is really sort of just without a doubt distracting and creating limits on their ability to engage in the work, engage in the social interactions with their peers, with their teachers, and that finding some way to keep those not in kids’ hands during the school day, in my mind, makes, a lot of sense. There’s plenty of digital access, and informational access in most schools these days. Kids are acting so they don’t need their phone to learn, during the day.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: When we were kids – we’re dinosaurs, but, you could hide. If you were reading a book, people would hide a book or a comic book. We passed notes, we whispered. But that level of inattention is something that is fundamentally different than phones. And the material on phones, that is 100% built to addict you, built to keep you there. That is how they have those systems are made to keep your eyes on and that is fundamentally different. And so having kids have times in their day without that, especially when we’re trying to teach them and we want them to learn. I think some kids, I mean, you were telling me about one of the studies or someone, one of the things we did a lot of reading for this. We’ll post all the things we talk about today or background work we did. But plenty of kids, at least at some level, feel some relief when they don’t have access to their phones and they find it painful and difficult to be constantly on their phones or that they wish they could be on less. so listening to students, like you were saying, making sure we’re including them in the conversation, I think we would find at least some subset of kids who would not be unhappy with that plan, at least, to a greater or lesser degree.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right. Well, and I think a good portion of that was, as we were talking about earlier, before the days of all of this social media. I sound like an old person, but, you could leave school and leave behind the bully or the teacher or the situation, or you did a thing that was embarrassing that might haunt you for a week, but then it was gone. Somebody didn’t video it and post it online.
Candida Fink: That’s right.
Jo-Ann Berry: And. Or, that kid who’s always harassing you in the hall, well, you’re free of them until tomorrow, and you have some time to go home and do whatever it is, Right. Do things that aren’t feeding into that negative experience or positive experience, for that matter. Certainly, I’m sure there are plenty of positive experiences of continuing a conversation or an experience online because it was fun and it would have some positive things to it, but being able to check out. And this is the same thing we’re seeing with adults, not having, your boss be able to expect you to do work after hours, that type of stuff, similar. It’s not that much different. But keep in mind, one of the things that was pointed out again and again in some of the reading and stuff is middle school and early high school students are still developing their social skills and how to manage experience in the world. And if it’s all filtered through a phone, it’s going to be different than it is if you’re actually sitting at lunch, having a conversation, or, in your class without that, or just out on the playground is not the right thing. But like, outside of school. Yeah, just like doing stuff.
Candida Fink: Right. Yeah, no, I. And that is, Right. That idea of one of the things about phones is how much they take from other critical activities of childhood and growth. We’re talking even beyond being in the classroom, which just fundamentally problematic. But the idea that they are so all consuming and built to consume your attention that they interfere with, or they take up time that is not given to actual interpersonal, socializing, physical activity, exercise, or reading a book. I mean, anything else that’s not on the phone. And it’s, again, the energy of these programs and these platforms to pull you in is so purposeful. That is, that is a feature of these things. And it’s problematic for adults with well developed or mature brains. Thinking about how that is pulling for kids’ brains, so much younger as they’re developing, and that figuring out the genie’s not going back in the bottle. This is part of kids’ lives, and their generations will ultimately be sort of managing this and fixing this. So we have to leave space for that. And that is not ever going back to how you or I grew up or even how our kids grew up, who are, millennials who are just pre this. Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: Just right. Just enough. Yeah.
Candida Fink: It’s not going back to that, but, we have to try to provide or think about, at least be thinking about as the. For the moment, the older people in the space of, how do we help younger people provide some protections for their brain growth and physical growth and not be sort of sucked in in this way by these purposefully all consuming platforms?
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. There’s probably some difference, but it doesn’t work if a student is in class and they’re doing a word game or a number game on their phone during an academic class. That’s not good. No, it’s the same difference as if they’re watching funny cat videos or funny America’s funniest, where people fall on their face or sports or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter so much, but that their attention. And here’s the thing – students think they can multitask.
Candida Fink: They do.
Jo-Ann Berry: Which we know very well that’s not how our brains work. Certainly, you can do the dishes and do laundry and be listening to an audiobook or a podcast or doing something else because you don’t need to think about the task so much when I’m thinking in school.
Candida Fink: You need your brain, You need your energy and your focus.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right? In one place.
Candida Fink: Yep.
Jo-Ann Berry: And practice. They don’t always believe me when I tell them that. I tell them I don’t care if they believe me or not. I’m expecting you to pay attention.
If you choose to be on your phone, there is a consequence
Candida Fink: And you said that’s what, that is the expectation you put in the classroom is. Yeah, right, like that. I expect you to not be on your phone.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right. And if you choose to be on your phone, there is a consequence, and I recognize that my students are 17 and 16, 17,18 years old. So clearly it’s going to be different in my classroom than if you’re teaching in middle school. Right. Eleven-year-olds. Right, right. So, there is that. And understanding that there is a consequence. Well, why do I have a “C”? Well, it’s because your participation is lower because you’re on your phone all the time.
Candida Fink: Right, right. So how can we help you? I think we want to make, always work to make it collaborative. Yes, I need you to make that choice, but I’m happy to help you make that choice. Do you want me to hold the phone? is it better if it’s not right in front of you? we want to help you make the choice because it is true and this is a thing, we’re helping you learn about, which is that your brain needs to practice focusing intently, even on things that you don’t like or that you find boring or uncomfortable. And I think that’s one of the bigger challenges here, is that the phones and the cat videos and the YouTube video, whatever, a lot of it is, stuff that’s the fun stuff on social media. I mean, there’s plenty of, or on phones, there’s other stuff that’s awful. but it’s just, that it can draw you away from having to do something that feels uncomfortable, wrangling with a math problem or wrangling with a topic that you’re discussing about a book that you’re reading that you don’t understand or doesn’t make sense or makes you angry. and if the phone is there to pull you from that you’re not able to practice and engage in that which is so important in growth and development.
Jo-Ann Berry: Exactly. That is a good point, is sometimes students will tell me, well, I’m not really interested, especially if it’s a smaller one-day assignment that I might give. I, don’t really care about this. Like, well, that’s okay. I’m still going to grade you on it. And if you don’t do it, that’s your choice, but you’re still responsible for it. And I have definitely had students in the past -I don’t think I have any at this level at the moment – But who just won’t. do the reading. The story or the book or the film are so uncomfortable to them. They will not, Sometimes they will leave the room and it’s like, this is not helping you. Let’s have a conversation. And sometimes they won’t even engage in a conversation Obviously, they were at my school for a reason.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: But not working to engage – why is this making you uncomfortable? What about it? And does it matter that this one paragraph where they talk about a thing that makes you uncomfortable is the only part of the story where that happens? And then we move on. It’s a small incident in the book that has certainly happened before. It’s like, nope, can’t get by it. Not interested, not going. So that’s not necessarily phone related, but having that retreat into comfort and getting that little dopamine hit because you just won at a level of a game or just saw something that made you laugh, using that appropriately. And we certainly have encouraged that or allowed that in certain cases. Like, okay, if you watch cat videos for five minutes, then maybe you can go back. Absolutely engaging. That would be something that we would support. Not our favorite, no, but understanding this is the tool that a student feels comfortable with, they have with them all the time. And so maybe they’re out in the world somewhere and something uncomfortable happens or bad happens. They can take a minute, right, go to that and then reengage.
Candida Fink: Practice the idea of re-engaging from that. And look, I’m a child psychiatrist. I would never, say that a kid who has trauma, has to sit through something that if they’re triggered, some people don’t like the word trigger, but there’s way more trauma than anyone, really, I think, is aware of in kids. We know, we tend to think of that as a sort of small number of kids, but there’s a lot. But I think including that in our conversations and helping kids, at least, stay with us for the conversation or take a break or go get the support. some kids, it’s absolutely going to material they can’t touch, and that’s okay, but we can’t just sort of let the whole thing go. The idea about wrangling with difficult topics or conversation, I’m not even talking about necessarily triggering things, but just ideas that are confusing or that you’re trying to even math, pushing yourself to the next level of understanding why the heck this geometry proof could possibly work. That is brain power. And you may never use a geometry proof again, but we as adults know that the process of learning to do that or a physics problem, that is part of how you’re creating a brain that can problem solve, that can think, and that pushing yourself. So even beyond the triggery stuff.
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah.
Candida Fink: Engagement, engagement with room. I love that idea. With room to say, look, if that’s what helps you get reengaged, we’ll meet you there. Right? So again, not saying we can get rid of everything or that we do ADHD kids, who cannot take it all in at once. We’ll have to do it in smaller chunks, say, okay, we know that now, but we’re not going to give up on the idea that you can still engage, or with reading, differences who may benefit from an audiobook, right? Or we mentioned another kid who once would go look and find film clips of a book that they were struggling with. So it’s all about creativity. But what we’re really fundamentally saying is that these phones in the room are taking kids out of the journey, out of the story.
Jo-Ann Berry: Becoming spectators. One of the things I was reading was like, there’s life outside, right? And then there’s life online. And many of us who didn’t grow up with it feel like the life online is not real, right? But people who did grow up with it or people who find it difficult to socialize otherwise, that is the real.
Candida Fink: Right, right.
Jo-Ann Berry: That’s just like when I heard that, it made sense to me, because I used to say to my kids, go do something real, right? And of course, my son would be like, this is real, mom. And it’s not even at the level it is now. But, being able to, as usual, as older adults speaking, that, trying to wrap our heads around that, it’s like, yeah, we think of the online world as not real.
Candida Fink: Not real, but it is.
Jo-Ann Berry: But people who have grown up with it. It is real. It’s their window into this. Whether it’s a computer or phone screen, it’s their world into this world that lives inside their head and inside the screen. So, understanding that could help us help them.
Candida Fink: Yes.
Jo-Ann Berry: But it does concern me as an educator and someone who’s, concerned about a lot of things in society today. And that’s part of the reason why it’s helpful to be able to access, like, oh, I want to know more about climate change, or I want to know more about forest fires or whatever it is. You can go and do that and learn so much. But on the other hand, that could feed into your anxiety about stuff. And if you don’t have a healthy way to deal with that, that can become a problem. So, as I say, there are the pluses and minuses of that. But one of the things that concerns me also is when we know that when you read on screen, the way you read is different than if you read with hard copy text. I think Kindles would count as hard copy text in this case. You’re engaging with the text in a different way and taking from it more or less. When you’re reading on screens, you tend to skim. And I’m not saying you don’t read deeply into an article, but it’s like, I don’t need that one, don’t need that one, don’t need that one.
Candida Fink: It’s so easy to flip and to move.
Jo-Ann Berry: exactly, exactly.
Candida Fink: Otherwise I have to stand up and get another book or go back to the library and get another book. I mean, again, we don’t want to sound like dinosaurs who appreciate that that’s not how the world is anymore. We get that, and there are pluses to that, of course, and also vulnerabilities. And the challenge is helping. However, we can help kids to not get tripped up with the vulnerabilities and be able to utilize the positives. Look, for some kids online, socialization is such a boon for kids who really struggle, kids on the spectrum or with profound social anxiety, you know, that may really benefit from having access to communities online.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. And we’ve talked about this before, the whole Discord thing. There are some very positive aspects of that. Just like anything, it can have its drawbacks. People can be, rude and trolls and all that kind of stuff on Discord. I don’t use it, but, I know it originated, I think with, people who played games, particular games, you’d have a Discord server for, a particular game. But it’s expanded to different other communities, and it can have guardrails around it. And if somebody is not following the norms, they can be booted.
Candida Fink: Owner, but by the moderator, you know?
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah. Much more easily than some of the larger platforms or the open, like what used to be Twitter, X, Facebook, those sorts of things And it’s more difficult to keep somebody who’s just there to cause mayhem off.
Candida Fink: Right. And there is a sense, I think, at least as my understanding, from both my kids and my patients who are on Discord servers, there is a real feeling of community there.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right.
Candida Fink: I think bringing it back full circle to these are some of the pros and cons of the whole story and these of access to the digital world, and being on a phone and having your phone with you. But the question is, even if these are good things, they’re really not the right place in school, because you need your brain in school. A break maybe, at times, but primarily, no, you can’t be doing that. I don’t think that’s dinosaur-ish. I think that’s just science. Brain science. That it is really hard. And the other piece, which we were talking about earlier as well, is the other thing about phones and not specifically in school, is sleep. Having a phone in bed, or even right up until you go to bed, is very, problematic for kids’ sleep. Even if their online experience was 100% positive, even if it wasn’t, bullying or something like that. It just so energizes the brain with the light and the contents. And again, material that is built to make it hard to put it down. And adults will tell you this, too, if you look at it in bed and you start getting on TikTok or Insta, and you’re like. And you look up, it’s an hour and a half later, you know.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right. Yeah. Or you think, oh, just one more.
Candida Fink: Just one more, just one more, just one more.
Candida Fink: They’re in our heads, and so. And we’re grown ups, so sleep is already problematic for teenagers because they’re vampires. Their brains naturally want to go to sleep later, sleep in later. That’s a period of time we don’t fully understand, but it’s a thing. It’s normative. Then we put cell phones in their hands at night in bed.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right.
Candida Fink: so I think that in the classroom and at sleep time are two of the most fundamental places where just the specific phones become, you know, a question of, it appears to be important for child development and learning to be. To be setting guardrails around those in particular.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right. And if you’re using your phone as an alarm clock, maybe you need to think about actually getting an alarm clock.
Candida Fink: Get a clock radio. We love those things, from years ago.
Jo-Ann Berry: I know.
Candida Fink: Again, I’m old, I get it.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right. So yeah, there are some positive, steps that families can take together. The sleep thing. and we also, both of us having grown children, will acknowledge that by the time our kids are in this phase where their brains naturally won’t go to sleep, parents go to bed before the kids. So it might be a little trickier to manage, not having the phone for the kid. But there is a good discussion.
Candida Fink: That’s communication.
Jo-Ann Berry: And even if it does have to be locked up until the morning if it turns out that the student can’t resist, perhaps another step. But what it has to work for you.
Candida Fink: Yes, and just like you said, at that age, you also need buy in from the kid. There may well be some part of them that wants to be able to shut it down for many kids. So engage with that part. Keep this theme over and over. Communication. Leave the communication open. Listen to your kids. Doesn’t mean you give them everything they want, but it means you’re having conversation and connection and communication.
Jo-Ann Berry: Well, and that made me think about there have been a few times when the students at my school come to the homeroom when we open the school when they get off the bus for ten minutes until class starts. and a few times students have come in and they’re like, I slept so great last night. I feel good today. And we’ll try to query that a little bit. It’s like, well, why is that? And sometimes it’s, I actually went to bed at 10:00 and slept all night long. and our students, you know, there’s sleep difficulties for all sorts of reasons.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: But they notice, yes. When they’ve had a good night’s sleep. So that would be a thing to help to recognize for students.
Candida Fink: Right.
Jo-Ann Berry: For students and parents, guardians to say, well, let’s just track this for a little while and see how you feel throughout the day when you put the phone away earlier. You turn off from electronics, because, like you said, we know that that amps up our brain. It makes it difficult to settle in, to go to sleep. track that for a couple of weeks and see what the difference is. And put particularly for somebody who might be on an athletic team, right? Like, do you have more energy when it comes time for practice or games? Do you feel like you’re doing better in school just because you’re not tired all the time? Because being tired all the time is just hard.
Candida Fink: It’s painful. It’s painful. I think there’s a somewhat normalization of that in teenagerhood, in our world, in particular. Well, I don’t know for all kids, but I can think of certain sort of subsets of kids like this, sort of kids who are aiming for high intensity sort of college applications or a sports scholarship of some kind. And it’s a little bit of like, well, I’m doing so much, I can’t sleep at all. I’m so tired. But see, that means how hard I’m working. There’s that sort of vibe, and kids don’t like it for the most part, to be that tired at all. But it’s a little bit of a badge of honor. And I just think we’re putting that on kids. I think that’s, we need to help them, not, we need to stop in any way, shape or form, feeling like that is okay and has become, you know, early, early school openings. We had this conversation at the beginning of this school year, and we’re, you know, here we are.
Jo-Ann Berry: Yeah.
Candida Fink: In April, coming full circle to it, because the same topics come up all the time.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: And specifically how the phone plays a role in that. And specifically coming back to the idea that trying to engage kids in these conversations and helping them develop the things with their energy and their interest and their motivation, is much more. Those habit changes or development will be much sturdier, more robust, more long-lived, if it’s not just us now, you need to do it, you know?
Jo-Ann Berry: Right, right.
Candida Fink: With the way I tell you, as I said. So, you know,
Jo-Ann Berry: No, yeah. That’s not effective ever. But also keep in mind that phone use is something you can control.
Candida Fink: Yes.
Jo-Ann Berry: Even if you’ve decided that you really want to do all these things to make your college application the strongest it can be. Whether or not that’s a good idea is a different matter. But you can control turning off your phone, spending a little time relaxing, and then going to bed at a time so that you’re tired and can go to sleep.
Candida Fink: Absolutely.
Jo-Ann Berry: can wind down. And then knowing that you have to get up at a certain time to go to school and stuff, That is something within your control. And especially knowing that it’s set up to keep you sucked in, that would just make me mad. It does make me mad. It’s like I don’t want somebody else controlling what I do. And then when I find myself in that situation, which I do from time to time, I’m like, wait a second. I am no longer interested in any of this stuff. I’m just looking through one more, one more, one more. So I’m going to stop right now.
Candida Fink: But that’s a, Thank you for bringing me back. I did digress. Keeping focus is important here. It’s so important that it’s not that it is in our control. Always a work in progress, because we’re battling these forces that are trying to keep our brains on our phone, keep our kids brains on their phone, but that we have to come together and we can change that and we can turn the dang phones off. Interesting, the idea that I think kids don’t want to think they’re being sort of duped or made fun of or, you know, being tricked. And that was a big part of sort of kids coming up. As anti-smoking came up, it became clear that the tobacco companies were lying and misleading, and kids became very angry. Nobody liked that. That was, like, nasty. Like, I don’t want that.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: And I think if we can help, that’s part of helping kids become more informed and aware that they have some control. We want to help them learn about what this system is doing to them, to their brain, and how they’re being sort of drawn into this and to try to build their own skills for awareness and inhibiting the impulse to keep going with it.
Jo-Ann Berry: right, right.
Candida Fink: In progress. Work in progress.
Jo-Ann Berry: Right.
Candida Fink: Yes.
Jo-Ann Berry: Just as life speeds along, gets more complicated, every generation.
Candida Fink: Every generation, new evolution. This is big. There are fundamental differences, but I think our two really are two highlights today. In school, in classrooms, and in bed before sleep.
Jo-Ann Berry: The sleeping. Yeah. Getting enough sleep
Candida Fink: Two times I think we can solidly agree that phones just don’t belong in those places, right?
Jo-Ann Berry: Yes. All right.
Candida Fink: With rare exceptions, we’ll always say there are always exceptions. And if anybody’s listening and has an exception. Okay, cool. Tell us, you know. Cause I’m sure there are, but as a rule, I think those are two places to say, fundamentally, no.
Jo-Ann Berry: No phone, right? Correct. Yes. All right. Okay.
Candida Fink: Well, all right. So, yeah, here we are. Mental health goes to school. This is a Jo-Ann and Candida chat. We didn’t do an interview today, but we have some interesting interviews coming up, in the next few episodes. So, we’ll look forward to sharing those with you as well.
Jo-Ann Berry: And as Candida said, look for the links to some of our resources, in the show notes, and,
Candida Fink: Send us questions, concerns, thoughts, comments, and criticisms. We want to hear it. You know your website, mental health goes to school.com? let us know. All right. See you on the next one, Jo.